Group: Calvinists§↻

Angus, if a human set a baby on fire you would think that he is a monster but if God sets babies on fire for millions upon triillions of years, He's a good guy? David's mother married a Moabite king and that is why he said "in sin did my mother conceive me." and again you have not answered the question, what sins do babies commit? And also I have a question for you, why did you leave out the last bit of psalms 58:3.? It says "speaking lies."
How many babies do you know lie? they can't even talk! if that is the clearest verse then why would you try to twist it and not put out the entire verse? And also you have already contradicted yourself in that you posted two different verses. You are using one verse say babies SIN WHEN CONCEIVED and another to say they sin AFTER BIRTH? There is 9 months difference there. Read Job 31:17-18. He raised up an orphan straight from the womb? You are not understanding figures of speech. also, in Ps. 58 it goes on to say this wicked HAS TEETH. Do you know of babies born with teeth that literally speak lies?

Watch Acts 2:8 here. Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

okay. according to your way of thinking, THEY WERE BORN SPEAKING THEIR NATIVE TONGUE IMMEDIATELY? No. Also, the bible says "all we like SHEEP HAVE GONE ASTRAY". So, the sheep go astray. THEY ARE SHEEP, NOT GOATS. When you reach the age of accountability which differs for each child, you then become a goat. But you really believe that God takes great pleasure in roasting babies for all eternity?

Lasher, Babies don't commit sin But as I said earlier they have sin in their blood. But that is not their fault. It is Adam's when he sinned in the garden of Eden. You cannot say that Babies are "sinners" when they have not committed sin. If you are a sinner then you have to sin and babies don't even have the knowledge to even sin. Babies don't know anything about sin and they are pure. Jesus said "of such is the kingdom of Heaven." when children reach the age of accountability (which there is no set age, but it depends on the child.) then that means they know when they sin. But a baby? No way! they have no idea about sin. If you saw a baby I am sure that the last thing that would ever enter your head is "look, at that sinner!" and Lasher I am very familiar with T.U.L.I.P. Calvinism. I have to go now But just think about what I said Lasher. thanks for your time and have a blessed night!

-Joshua.

Dear Joshua,
Calvinism is merely a systematic (and very useful) way of explaining Biblical theology. In response to your comments about the innocence of babies, the Bible makes it clear than even the youngest babies are sinful: they have a corrupt moral character.
There are numerous Scriptural passages which demonstrate that all are sinners, for instance , Romans 3:23, “All have sinned”, but there are too many to list them all. Several of these texts refer to infants in particular, David says, “I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Psalm 51:5). Job 11:12, refers to men as “born like a wild ass's colt”. Again, Job 15:14, “What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?” And lastly, and most clearly, Psalm 58:3, “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born”.
The question then is not whether babies are sinful – the Bible undoubtedly affirms they are – but rather, how do they sin? It is clear they sin as soon as they are capable of moral action –all of us who have children have seen evidence of this – but as soon as they are born they have original sin, are guilty before God, and inherit corruption from their parents: “that which is born of the flesh is flesh” (John 3:6). If nothing else, the predisposition to do evil, is a sinful thing in the eyes of a perfectly holy God.
The logical conclusion from your assertion that babies are sinless is that those dying in infancy go to heaven without the need of being saved by Christ, which is contrary to many passages which assert that there is only one way of salvation.
Best wishes,
Angus

Thanks Joshua and Lasher for your comments. These are complicated issues and doctrines- if they were simple all Christians would agree but we don't! Some of the greatest theologians and scholars over the ages have studied these things and still disagree. It is in many ways a matter of conviction. I'm really happy to continue this debate, not to convince you of my position but to explore these difficult issues (if you wish). However, I am mindful that this is a public site with children of all ages on it so we should be careful what we post, particularly around the difficult issue of babies. Some people may find it distressing and we should use the site to encorouge and strengthen. Yours in Christ.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God! even babies have sinned, they are not perfect. or do you seem to think someone else apart from God can be perfect?? i don't think so. if what you said about babies being innocent, you think they go to heaven, so why do you hate abortion? because if they die before 'coming of age' then they will go to heaven, but if you wait they may not become a christian, they will go to hell!!! thousands of babies and born into non-christian families every year so that would mean thousands more people going to heaven if that were right!!! but you seem to think this is a bad thing. i don't think that babies are innocent, that would nearly be putting them equal with Jesus if they are perfect! so think about this. i may not agree with kiwimatt on the christmas subject, but i do on this one! have you heart the five points of T.U.L.I.P?