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Angus, if a human set a baby on fire you would think that he is a monster but if God sets babies on fire for millions upon triillions of years, He's a good guy? David's mother married a Moabite king and that is why he said "in sin did my mother conceive me." and again you have not answered the question, what sins do babies commit? And also I have a question for you, why did you leave out the last bit of psalms 58:3.? It says "speaking lies."
How many babies do you know lie? they can't even talk! if that is the clearest verse then why would you try to twist it and not put out the entire verse? And also you have already contradicted yourself in that you posted two different verses. You are using one verse say babies SIN WHEN CONCEIVED and another to say they sin AFTER BIRTH? There is 9 months difference there. Read Job 31:17-18. He raised up an orphan straight from the womb? You are not understanding figures of speech. also, in Ps. 58 it goes on to say this wicked HAS TEETH. Do you know of babies born with teeth that literally speak lies?

Watch Acts 2:8 here. Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

okay. according to your way of thinking, THEY WERE BORN SPEAKING THEIR NATIVE TONGUE IMMEDIATELY? No. Also, the bible says "all we like SHEEP HAVE GONE ASTRAY". So, the sheep go astray. THEY ARE SHEEP, NOT GOATS. When you reach the age of accountability which differs for each child, you then become a goat. But you really believe that God takes great pleasure in roasting babies for all eternity?

Lasher, Babies don't commit sin But as I said earlier they have sin in their blood. But that is not their fault. It is Adam's when he sinned in the garden of Eden. You cannot say that Babies are "sinners" when they have not committed sin. If you are a sinner then you have to sin and babies don't even have the knowledge to even sin. Babies don't know anything about sin and they are pure. Jesus said "of such is the kingdom of Heaven." when children reach the age of accountability (which there is no set age, but it depends on the child.) then that means they know when they sin. But a baby? No way! they have no idea about sin. If you saw a baby I am sure that the last thing that would ever enter your head is "look, at that sinner!" and Lasher I am very familiar with T.U.L.I.P. Calvinism. I have to go now But just think about what I said Lasher. thanks for your time and have a blessed night!

-Joshua.

Thanks Joshua and Lasher for your comments. These are complicated issues and doctrines- if they were simple all Christians would agree but we don't! Some of the greatest theologians and scholars over the ages have studied these things and still disagree. It is in many ways a matter of conviction. I'm really happy to continue this debate, not to convince you of my position but to explore these difficult issues (if you wish). However, I am mindful that this is a public site with children of all ages on it so we should be careful what we post, particularly around the difficult issue of babies. Some people may find it distressing and we should use the site to encorouge and strengthen. Yours in Christ.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God! even babies have sinned, they are not perfect. or do you seem to think someone else apart from God can be perfect?? i don't think so. if what you said about babies being innocent, you think they go to heaven, so why do you hate abortion? because if they die before 'coming of age' then they will go to heaven, but if you wait they may not become a christian, they will go to hell!!! thousands of babies and born into non-christian families every year so that would mean thousands more people going to heaven if that were right!!! but you seem to think this is a bad thing. i don't think that babies are innocent, that would nearly be putting them equal with Jesus if they are perfect! so think about this. i may not agree with kiwimatt on the christmas subject, but i do on this one! have you heart the five points of T.U.L.I.P?

If they do not simply follow John Calvin then why do they clearly call themselves after Him? It is called Calvinism for a reason. On the day of judgment, It is not going to matter one single bit what John Calvin said. His words will be worthless and you will come to the knowledge that you were following a man. Instead of calling your self after your Lord and savior, you called yourself after a man. And you will be ashamed. And it is not like we have not studied Calvinism. my Dad has spent 20+ years studying it. We have family that are Calvinist so it is not like I don't know what they believe. And I have a question for you, why would God, having the power to save all men, choose to only save a little small group. And not only that, burn innocent babies in Hell. only a cruel monster would burn innocent babies in Hell. You may say: "they are not innocent." But in what way do they sin? they may have sin in their blood But that does not mean that they have committed the act of sin. When Jesus preached He was talking about children and he said: "of such is the kingdom of heaven." he did not say Hell. the Bible says God hates hands that shed innocent blood. One day you will see that you were wrong. Love warns and if I did not love you enough to warn you, then I would have not said anything. Thanks for your time and have a blessed night.

Well, I will gladly take up the defence of Calvinsim, or more appropriately the Doctrines of Grace. People that adhere to the Doctrines of Grace do not follow Calvin the man, who during the reformation period simply rediscovered what the Apostles themselves knew and taught. They follow what they believe are revealed purposes, teachings and workings of God revealed in the Scriptures. The Doctrines of Grace are not man centred- they teach the total sinfulness and depravity of man, mans inability to save himself and the irresistible grace of God in calling and saving sinners. It is totally God centred which is why so many people struggle with it- because it deprives the proud heart of man any part in his own salvation. True Calvinists freely and fervently preach to gospel to all men everywhere in every situation because we don't know who are the elect of God. Ephesians 1:4-5: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. As the Apostles knew, it is of God's free will and good pleasure to save those who he chooses to save. Romans 9:18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he Hardeneth. God is not evil for not saving everyone, the miracle is that he should choose to save any at all. Every blessing to this group and no offence ment to any brother or sister in Christ.

Praise the Lord! And you are so right, Calvinism is man centered and you are naming yourself after man when you should be naming yourself after Christ. (Christian.)

I look back to this group which I created, now in the fullness of the Christian faith in Orthodox Christianity, and I am disgusted how I believed and was devoted to such a man-made, heretical doctrine as Calvinism. However, all of Reformed theology is man-made and makes the Bible subjective and relativistic. Although it is the final authority for the Christian, it has no final interperetation in Protestantism. Protestants find themselves consulting their favorite commentator or book when interpereting the Bible. Orthodox Christianity, which saw no Reformation, has maintained the same Traditions handed down by Christ and the Apostles for 2,000+ years. I am finally home. God bless - Ex-calvinistteen.

Lasher, I think that you should study more into the Calvinist doctrine. because they don't say that the elect are just the ones that God knows that repent but rather they say God says he CHOOSES who will go to heaven and who would go to Hell. and they say man his NO CHOICE in the matter. they don't get to choose but rather God. if that was the God of the Bible then that would make him a evil God because he could have saved the whole world. but he chose not to. Lasher, I urge you to start looking into this stuff. I have studied this stuff for years so it is not like I don't know about their doctrine. love warns and if I did not love you and everyone else I would not be posting this. God clearly states that he gave man a free will and that God does not force people to go to Heaven or Hell. the Calvinist don't even read their Bible because if they did they would have changed their doctrine to what the Bible teaches. and also in the Bible when people killed baby's he called it a abomination. and do you think if God called that an abomination about just killing the babies that he would turn around and burn them in Hell. baby's are completely innocent. they are not wicked sinners like the Calvinist think. ask your self this question, what sin do baby's do? we have talked to a Calvinist before and when we asked him this he said "well, they cry!" crying is not a sin! the shortest verse in the Bible is John 11:35. "Jesus wept." all baby that die go to heaven but that does not mean that God approves abortion. God says that he HATES hands that shed innocent blood. and that is what abortion is. they are just killing baby's for the money. the Bible says for the love of money is the root of ALL evil. please think about this. -Joshua.

About the free will, God already knows what will happen, so he does give us a free will, but he knows what will happen before it does

Everyone gets a chance to repent and know God. But as I have said God already knows who will do this! So they are the elect.

Also, I agree God loves everyone, not just the elect, but I do think that the Calvinist point of view is the right one.

So he already know who will repent. So it's not like some people can't go to heaven, it's just that God already knows who will go to heaven!

I agree the elect can be confusing!! I even get confused sometimes!!! But, because God knows the future, he knows who will repent, so he says they are the elect!

That still does not make abortion good because God has plan for those baby's life's. who knows, maybe one of the baby's that has gotten aborted could had invented the cure for cancer etc.. the bible says that Christ died for the whole world and not just the "elect" the Bible says for God so loved the WORLD not the elect. the bible says that who ever repents will have eternal life but Calvinist believe that God pre-ordained before the foundation of the world who would go to heaven and who would go to Hell. But the Bible clearly states that God gives everyone a chance to repent and to know him. and also Calvinist believe that God forces people to get saved and then does not give man a free will but then how come Adam and Eve sinned against God if they did not have a free will. there are many flaws in the Calvinist circle. it is not like I don't love Calvinist, my grandparents are Calvinist but their doctrine is still untrue it is not what the Bible teaches.

So I agree with the Calvinist point of view!

When does the bible teach otherwise???

If un-elect babies went to heaven, then abortion is kind of good, because even if they are from non Christian families they go to heaven!

no, I am not a Calvinist because they believe un-elect innocent babies are burning in Hell when the Bible teaches other wise.

I used to go to one, but then we moved!

Do you go to a reformed Presbyterian church?

im not reformed

Hello my reformed brethren!