There are some other important considerations to bear in mind regarding KJV vs other versions. KJV is public domain and thus free of copyright. Other versions hold copyright and require payment to publishing companies for use of quotations (in certain circumstances). These publishing companies make hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue.
Do you think it's right for an owner of a publishing company to be making money this way?
Another thing to consider is the character of those behind the new versions. For example, you can easily find quotes from people such as Eugene Peterson, the author of the "Message" (which is very popular and I've seen used in Churches). https://www.dennyburk.com/eugene-peterson-will-always-exist/
Thanks for that Final Asgard. He certainly sounds confident in his assertions, but doesn't provide any references to back them (and I might take the time to read them if they were provided). Whole books have been written about many of his statements which either argue for or against such claims.
He has chosen to present the claims of one point of view (which happens to be the most popular view in modern day scholars). These kinds of talks remind me of my Bible College days where well-educated and convincing speakers cast doubt on the strength of the KJV. Since I now know better, I don't just accept what someone says, but seek the truth for myself. As Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find."
It's a great explanation of the history of Bible texts and it strengthens our faith that God has faithfully preserved His Word since it was first written by the apostles and prophets. It also explains why the Majority Text (over 90% of discovered NT manuscripts) represent the original autographs and how these match the copies that Erasmus was working with when he translated the Greek into English (which was used in the KJV).
I think any time spent studying this subject (and even learning Greek to arrive at an informed conclusion) is worthwhile and spiritually beneficial.
15 years ago, I was using other versions and that was because it was the best of my knowledge at the time. But since then, I've learned more and encourage others to also keep learning about the subject, which is truly fascinating.
Are we allowed to discuss the word corrupt? If comprehensive analysis of all available Greek texts shows that hundreds of deletions and "variations" suddenly appeared in one line of texts, wouldn't it suggest that it was done deliberately and not by accident? And if it was done deliberately, how does it not qualify as corruption? Take a look at this list and ask, "Were these changes made by accident, or deliberately?" https://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/various.html Also, which one is the Word of God?
I am not suggesting that modern translators have deliberately created a corrupt translation. I would like to think that they are all doing the best they can with the knowledge they have been taught. And they have been taught the Alexandrian texts are the most reliable. However, if you read the link I supplied, the Alexandrian texts were found in a rubbish bin in a monastery by Tischendorf in the 1800s. The Monks were using it as fire kindling, as they knew it wasn't a trustworthy text and because of its content and origins. Most Christians are completely unaware of these important historical facts which have a direct bearing on which versions to read. I'm just sharing what I've learned for the benefit of others and I deeply care for every precious believer who uses this site.
I will share a very interesting story which is relevant to the discussion. Recently, I tried to share the gospel with one of my neighbours. He's a quiet man who lives alone and always seems deep in thought. When I tried to share the value of knowing the Lord, through the Bible, he said he wasn't interested. He was willing to explain why: When he was younger he dabbled with Shamanism and acquired a "Spirit Guide". (For those who don't know, these are deceptive demons posing as helpers). His Spirit Guide told him not to trust the King James Version, the book of Revelation, or to believe in Jesus Christ as God, or the existence of heaven, or the Tree of Life. He had never read the Bible, and didn't know about any other versions of the Bible. He thought the KJV was the only Bible.
Since it was clear that he was being deceived away from the eternal life through Jesus Christ which I was attempting to offer, I didn't push the issue, but left with the following information: Demons hate the KJV, the book of Revelation and Jesus Christ.
I went home and doubled down my efforts on memorizing Revelation in the KJV!!
Hi Jappel, I cannot see anywhere I said the KJV is corrupt. I am putting forth an argument to say the KJV is reliable. I said the New World Translation is corrupt, and can supply plenty more information to support that. Also I said the Alexandrian texts were corrupted and gave a reference link for supporting information. I'm sorry you misunderstood my points.
The reason I chimed in on this discussion is because it is important to figure out what the best available English version is (and to do that you need to research the best Greek versions). And because I care about you, my friends, and perhaps my comments will lead someone to have a stronger relationship with God.
I used to hold the position that the ESV was superior to the KJV, based on what I learned at Bible College. However, I've come to humbly accept that I was wrong, and now only read and memorize the KJV exclusively.
OnFire, I think your point #6 is one of the best you've made there. And I believe that if you ask the Lord to show you the truth on this and are willing to accept it, He may even tell you.
On the point about learning Greek - well, I did that at Bible College, however, it's not practical to memorize for a few reasons: 1. It takes a LOT of work to learn and keep the vocabulary fresh in your mind, as you won't be using these words in conversation. 2. You can't quote Greek to people.
I live in an English speaking culture and so I need to know God's Word in English to reach people. Fortunately, good men such as Erasmus sought to accurately translate the Greek to English, and they did a wonderful job, and used the best manuscripts.
There were others who sought to corrupt the Word of God and did this in the early centuries (Greek manuscripts - eg. Alexandrian), and recent times (New World Translation is an obvious example).
Yes, I used to believe the Theological differences were small, however, if you take just one issue, such as the Trinity, you find there are many verses that were changed or even deleted to try to remove Jesus Christ from the Godhead. eg. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. You'll find most of the modern versions have deleted it. That's why JWs love the modern versions, because they won't accept that Jesus Christ is God.
I just want to encourage you all to keep researching this, and asking the Lord to show you the truth. I probably can't convince you of anything, but God can.
I have found the choice of version to have a big impact on me and my relationship with the Lord, and thus how effective I can be for Him.
If anyone else has had the same experience, I would be interested to hear about it.
Anyone who wants to know the truth about this subject needs to dig deeper, much deeper than Seminary level academia. In my Masters of Theology they all praised the Alexandrian text (mentioned below), however, I have since found that it IS corrupt. The KJV is derived from a completely different line of manuscripts, the Byzantine ones. And yes, Erasmus was the translator in 1516, a brilliant man. He didn't add Acts 8:37, as it's found in codex Laudianus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Laudianus Dated 550 AD.
There are good reasons why this most reliable translation doesn't appear in even older manuscripts. The flawed assumption taught in Bible College is that older=more reliable. However this is not the case. If you want to know why, just ask me.
Also, do you think God cares if we read or memorize a corrupted version of Scripture?
OnFire, I am so glad to hear that your goal is to help others break free from the chains of darkness. That is a wonderful goal for your memorization.
Yes, I agree that we can't focus on either grace or works alone. I started life as a Catholic, where the true message of salvation through faith in Jesus wasn't conveyed, and entry to heaven was believed to be based on works (eg. Mother Theresa), and how often you went to church and prayed the rosary.
But then we converted to Evangelical theology where we were made terrified of "works" because then we might be tempted to trust in them for our salvation (like we did as Catholics) and then be lost. Sadly, most sermons I've heard in Evangelical churches (and Bible College) focus entirely on grace with the verses on works being entirely avoided.
But in recent years, I have come to believe that good works ARE important for believers, much more than I was led to believe by the prevailing winds of theology.
By good works, I mean everything that we are asked to do by Jesus - keeping his word, sharing the gospel, praying, fasting, giving to the poor etc. Of course, not trusting in them for salvation, but doing them to please God and bless others.
And perhaps you're right, that nothing we do can 'impress' God, but since I coined that term, and found that the concept works for me pragmatically, I'll keep using it! I find that the traps of apathy, laziness and sin tend to appear if I'm not pressing forward in my effort to "impress" God!
It's great to be able to discuss these things amicably and hear different perspectives.
Yes, if there was an opt-out for achievements, I would pick it! Regarding the issue of faith and works, I would refer to James 2:18, and Revelation 3:2. I was brought up with the common theological doctrine that our works are like filthy rags (and no one ever explained the context of that verse), which then implies that we shouldn't even try to do anything good, as it might risk pride etc.
However, I have since learned that God does care about our works, as is revealed by how many times "works" are mentioned by Jesus in Revelation 1-3. Also, in the sermon on the mount, Jesus says we will be rewarded for activities such as praying in secret. I am sure Bible memorization is in a similar category of activity, and that we will be rewarded for it, provided we don't become prideful or have the wrong motives (such as being seen by others).
Also the Sheep and goats passage of Matthew 25 is all about works.
Another good exercise is to find how many times the phrase, "According to your works" appears. Here are just a few: Matt 16:27, 1 Peter 1:17, Rev 2:23, Rev 20:13.
I'm not saying this to win an argument, but rather to help you. I wish someone had told me this at some point years ago. I only discovered it through my own Bible reading, etc.
I think any incentive to spend more time memorizing God's word is of value. And the achievements are good for this. However, it's not a good motivation to try to impress others with our achievements, but rather keep our focus on impressing God, and preparing for future ministry/tribulation.
Just in the past month, Pastor Artur in Canada was imprisoned and denied a Bible. He would have had to rely on memorized verses to keep him going.
So a good question to ask is: If I was imprisoned without a Bible, which passages would I need to remember to get me through?
Also, if I have an opportunity to share the gospel, which passages should I be able to quote? Your Romans Road verses would be in this group.
Another important category of scriptures to memorize is holiness: eg. Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. and Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart... This is linked to the beatitudes you mentioned in Matt 5:8. Blessed are the pure in heart...
Having a discussion about the most helpful verses is a great idea, but I don't know how to initiate that.
I hadn't heard of the Boldness conferences. I went to a music conference in Perth in about 2006. So are you a musician, or songwriter? I play guitar and piano and some singing also.
Wow that was an interesting read. They knew Carol and Jimmy Owens, so that explains why they included many of their songs.
In 1983, when I first heard these songs, I just assumed they had been around for many years, like hymns (and some of them may have been). But I didn't realise that many were like the "latest hits" of worship music, just written a few years earlier. Our gospel chapel had many new converts (including our family) and they sang these songs with such enthusiasm. Several of those families went on to become missionaries overseas. I think Scripture in Song had a significant role in many Christian's lives which had a lasting impact.
You are right about Bible based songs. It seems not many are writing songs like that anymore.
I found out recently that Jimmy and Carol Owens were prolific songwriters in the 70s and some of their songs were included in Book 1 of Scripture in Song. For example, "Freely Freely" and "Holy Holy".
Oooh, yes, the old Scripture in Song. I used to play piano for church, and as practice, I would play all the Scripture in Song songs that I knew. (book 1 and 2) I preferred book 1 (the brown one) as it was the one we used in the Gospel Chapel when our family first came to Christ. (I was only 7 then). After that, we did ACE homeschooling and spent about 2 hours a day on Bible memory (KJV) for which I am very grateful. My mother gave my sister and I a dollar for every chapter we memorized! We didn't do it for the money but it showed that Mum supported us in our ambition to memorize the NT and Proverbs.
When I was in highschool I memorized Proverbs, but if I had to a chance to make that choice again, I would have chosen Psalms or Matthew instead. Psalms is about twice the size of Matthew and three times the size of Proverbs, but it has much depth and even Jesus quoted from it.
I'm a long way from there in QLD, but I think the protests are great. I wouldn't want to be there with the police using sonic weapons. I wouldn't want to lose my hearing. I might be fasting on that day. So good to hear the Lord is speaking to you. Is it through dreams?