There is always a tendency for our natural minds to try to boil down a complex problem into the most simple answer, because that's the way we have been taught to think. But when trying to understand God and his nature, trying to apply this method doesn't work. For example, the Oneness doctrine fails in many situations in the Bible, eg. When Jesus was praying to the Father, especially in the Garden of Gethsemane. If Jesus was the same person as the Father, why would there be a tension in their wills? "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42)
Also, the persons of the Trinity don't share all their knowledge. Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Or if you consider the point of time when Jesus was a newborn baby, who was in charge of the angels and the running of the universe? It was God the Father in heaven. Jesus, as God the Son, had taken on a role of messiah, which involved giving up much of the power He had prior to his incarnation. Jesus became a vulnerable human being who needed the care of a mother and could be killed. In doing so, God the Son became human and experienced what it's like to be weak and tempted. (eg. in the wilderness) But as God the Son, Jesus was in subordination to the Father and was an obedient servant, doing the Father's will and ultimately being crucified as the plan of salvation required.
The first three verses of Hebrews explains much about the fundamental nature of God.
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Hebrews 1:3 describes the Son as the "express image of his person".
Jesus Christ was God in the flesh and demonstrated God's perfect nature. Jesus demonstrated God's love in an immediate way to those He healed, taught and fed, and ultimately by suffering and dying for us. Jesus demonstrated God's perfect nature by never sinning. Jesus Christ is God, but He is also a unique person.
I'm sure it will be far easier to understand when we are with him in the future. The Bible is God's Word and is our best source of information to understand God's nature. And there are hundreds of verses describing God and his nature as the Trinity. This points to the complexity of God's nature, and that it's not a simple concept.
Muslims have much difficulty with this, and reject the Trinity. I think they have trouble because the Koran presents God as being very simple, and that concept of God is what they have been taught their whole lives.
Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the Trinity and they have created their own Bible to exclude or distort the verses which support Jesus as God the Son. John 1:1 is probably the best example of this.
I think most of the difficulty comes from our understanding of the world from the perspective of Newtonian physics. For example, if you have three billiard balls on a table, they cannot overlap each other, but have hard physical boundaries. In contrast, God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we are not just a body, but a body, soul and spirit.
Some of the best verses to help you understand the Trinity are John chapter 1, especially, 1:1 and 1:14. The clearest description of the trinity is 1 John 5:7. We live in a 3 dimensional world, but there are other dimensions which are invisible to us. Modern physics has proven that to be true. God is a multidimensional being and is not easy to understand, because He is a spirit. John 4:24. God exists both inside and outside of our physical world. Many Bible verses talk about God dwelling in heaven, but God also dwells in us. 1 Cor 3:16. So if you consider how many believers are living on earth, and God is living inside each one of them, that's pretty mind-boggling. But if you've ever had an experience of the Holy Spirit inside you, even if it's just one special dream, you'll know that it's absolutely true. If you can accept that God is capable of dwelling in millions of believers simultaneously, then that might help with accepting the concept of the Trinity.
Which aspect of the Trinity are you finding difficult?
I came across this lovely passage in Titus today that I thought I would share: 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
I rarely contribute to discussions, but in this particular situation, I felt it necessary to share my personal knowledge on the subject, as I have an unusual amount of experience in this area and I felt the advice being offered was spiritually hazardous. Paul encourages us to speak, exhort and rebuke, and to be a peculiar people, zealous of good works. I hope that I've encouraged you all to do that. Grace be with you.
Hi Jappel, It's ok, I'm completely calm but would like to give a final response to what Onfire said about my comments.
When I asked: "Can a Christian commit any kind of sin and still get to heaven?" I was trying to show that some sins are very serious and may preclude Christians from going to heaven. For example, I met a young man at church decades ago who told me, quite unashamedly, that he regularly committed a particular sin. He had also been to Bible College and was surely convinced that grace would cover him, and he would still make it to heaven. However, Ephesians 5:5 says that he won't inherit the kingdom of God as his sin was listed there.
So you can see that this question is a long way from asserting a requirement for sinless perfection.
Now, on the subject of Halloween, if an ex-satanist can't convince you of the dangers of participating in Halloween, then it seems futile for me to attempt to do so. I was only trying to help you.
I hope the discussion was helpful for any readers. I personally found it very helpful to sharpen my own conscience and to be more motivated to practice what I believe.
Also, remember what Jesus said in Revelation 2:23: "all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." So our works are important and we should be striving to please our Lord with good works and avoiding sin.
And although I hadn't mentioned sinless perfection before, now that you bring it up, I think it is a worthy goal and there are many scriptures to support that. Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
It's far better to strive for perfection than to test the limits of God's grace.
Hi Onfire, No, you are not understanding me correctly. You repeatedly use the word "sinless", and I never did. So you've set up a straw man and defeated him convincingly. But that's not what I said.
What I'm saying is that we are judged according to our works. Faith in Jesus Christ is the starting point for salvation, and is an obvious requirement, so that excludes Muslims. Both sheep and goats have faith in Jesus Christ and call him Lord, but the goats have forgotten about the importance of good works. And the goats don't get into heaven.
That takes us back to Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
This should be at the core of our doctrine, rather than verses taken out of the context of Paul's discussions on circumcision.
For example, your quote of Gal 2:16 refers to "works of the law". What are those? verse 14 explains the context: If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? And look at verses 7, 8, 9, and 12 which all refer to circumcision.
So, if you substitute "works of the law" with "circumcision", it all makes sense.
These are not the good works that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 25.
In Revelation 20 it says: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
These books have a record of all our works, meaning everything we've done. This is very different from "works of the law" referred to in Paul's letters.
Once again you built a straw man argument that I'm somehow saying that Jesus didn't bring grace. Of course Jesus brought grace! As I said in my post: "My personal understanding of grace is that God has provided a way for us to enter heaven through the Lord Jesus Christ and his death on the cross. Also, God's forgiveness of our sins is included in the concept of grace."
If we want Jesus Christ to call us a good and faithful servant at the judgment, then that's what we need to be.
Christians can't dabble with as much evil as we like and expect a rubbery concept of grace to make all our bad behaviour go unnoticed by God.
Hi Onfire, I would like to respond to your questions directed to me, if I may. Please note that I am trying help you see a different perspective on this for your own benefit.
The teaching that "Matthew is written to a Jewish audience", inevitably sows the seed of thought that none of it applies to us as Gentiles. I heard this in Bible College and I don't buy it.
If we are disciples of Jesus, then every word in the book of Matthew needs to be taken seriously and applied to us today wherever possible. Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24:35? "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
You asked me, "Does the works-based message to a works-based Jewish people mean the same thing after Jesus' death on the cross where he paid for the sins of all?"
I don't believe that as soon as Jesus died, all the rules of salvation changed and from that point in time no one was required to do anything good.
I believe that God has always required his children to be good, both before and after the death of Jesus.
Some may suggest that as long as you "believe", you get a free ticket to heaven, and you can do whatever you like, but Matthew 25 shows this isn't the case.
Matthew 25, is an entire chapter outlining what you may call a "works-based message". The sheep are those who are obedient and did good works. The goats are those who were disobedient and failed to do good works. Note that the goats refer to Jesus as "Lord", so they are believing Christians. Isn't that rather surprising? Jesus ends the chapter with this: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
So Jesus is talking about the eternal destiny of Christians here. They are in two distinct groups - the sheep and the goats, and their destinies are very different.
Both groups must have faith in Jesus and believe Jesus died to pay for their sins, otherwise how could they call him Lord?
I believe Matthew applies to us today, even as Gentiles, and that we need to make sure that we are sheep and not goats. We need to be obedient and zealous to do good works, which God has prepared for us.
If you take a step back, you will see that the entire modern theological academic teaching on this subject ignores everything Jesus said, and rests solely on Ephesians 2:8, and specifically the word "grace". But bear in mind that the meaning of "grace" is never defined, and surprisingly it is not to be found in any of the gospels.
Also, consider that the term "works" Eph 2:8 could be referring to "works of the law" or the ceremonial laws such as circumcision. Paul was assuring the Ephesian church that they didn't need to follow Jewish ceremonial laws and become circumcised, as you see in Eph 2:11. The whole passage from verse 11 onwards is an explanation of the way Christ broke down the division between Jews and Gentiles. The boasting may be specifically referring to the Jewish Christian men boasting that they had been circumcised.
Is there any other evidence Eph 2:8 is referring to ceremonial works (eg. circumcision)? Yes, in Romans 3. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
As you see in verse 30, the big issue at the time was regarding circumcision. Gentile Christians were being pressured by Jewish believers to be circumcised, and Paul is explaining why that isn't necessary.
I think we need to be careful not to take Eph 2:8 in isolation out of the context of circumcision and then use it to nullify everything Jesus taught regarding the importance of good works.
My personal understanding of grace is that God has provided a way for us to enter heaven through the Lord Jesus Christ and his death on the cross. Also, God's forgiveness of our sins is included in the concept of grace.
But does God have any limits on his grace? Can a Christian commit any kind of sin and still get to heaven? When you read the entire New Testament, that seems very unlikely. In the final Judgement, the exact details of our works will be reviewed. Revelation 20:13 says, "and they were judged every man according to their works."
I think that participation in Halloween will not count in anyone's favour. So I'm encouraging you and everyone here who reads this to give Halloween a wide berth.
I will conclude with this passage: 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
I hope this is helpful for whoever reads it. It's a perspective on the subject that I arrived at by reading God's Word for myself and not from a theological textbook.
Hi Onfire, My comments were meant to highlight the seriousness of participating in Halloween and nothing personal towards you. I would have made the same comments to anyone holding your position. Having said that, on the subject of salvation, I consider one of the key passages the words of our Saviour in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." So we need to discern what God's will is for us. If it's not God's will for us to participate in Halloween, then it's important that we not do so.
And why? What harm could we possibly suffer as a consequence? Demonic oppression/ possession. I have assisted with deliverance ministry (aka exorcisms), and assure you that church-going believers can be affected in this way, and that it's a terrifying experience for those victims. If giving up Halloween can prevent this, then it's a very small price to pay for peace of mind. If you doubt what I'm saying, just speak to anyone in deliverance ministry and they will tell you how important it is to renounce all involvement in the occult (including Halloween) in order to achieve a successful deliverance.
Please take my comments in the spirit of love and concern that is intended to help you.
The psychic and former satanist are experts in the field and giving clear and good advice on the exact topic that has been raised. They also share helpful information on exactly why you should not eat Halloween candy (literally sugar-coated witchcraft!), and wear Halloween costumes. I could link dozens of other experts who have come out of the occult and they will all say the same thing: Have nothing to do with Halloween - it's dangerous.
According to the satanist, participating in Halloween affects you by spells and curses being cast on you and working through the demonic clothing etc. It has nothing to do with you believing it, but by participating in it, you give permission for these to take effect. I don't think these can be washed off as simply as mud from the skin.
Ephesians 5:11 says: "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." Why are you giving advice opposite to Paul? Paul was a tremendous evangelist, yet never would engage in something as evil as Halloween.
And yes, I would advise spending time alone with God to become empowered by the Holy Spirit before venturing out into this evil world to share the gospel. Jesus himself spent 40 days in the wilderness, led by the Holy Spirit. And Jesus didn't just "hang out" with random sinners, but found specific people he knew were ready to repent. Then they repented, and Jesus moved on to the next place. Jesus was continually on the move during his ministry. Jesus would never have participated in Halloween.
From what I learned today, Halloween is the most important day of the year for Satanists and all forms of witchcraft, and anyone they can lure into participating in Halloween is a victory for the kingdom of darkness. Remember that the devil is an expert at making sin appear harmless and appealing (think Garden of Eden.) Things are becoming worse and worse in regards to the pervasive and pernicious spread of the occult in our society. So as Christians we should be extra vigilant to keep ourselves from being affected, and succumbing to the lie that "just a little bit won't hurt." It's like playing with a deadly snake while thinking it's a harmless one. A serious and unnecessary risk.
I take the time to write these things because I care about you, Onfire. I hope you can learn not to be conformed to this world, but transformed in your thinking by the Word of God.
Hi Onfire, I understand your point of view, however, I think you have severely underestimated the spiritual damage that can be done by participating in Halloween.
And here a former satanist says Halloween is "the Devil's Holiday", and says that dressing in Halloween costumes brings curses on you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q369iQJ49cY
Deuteronomy 18:10-14 makes it very clear that witchcraft is forbidden for God's people, but even if you only accept New Testament verses, there are plenty on the subject.
Revelation 21:8 says, "those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Galatians 5:20-21 says that witchcraft prevents people from inheriting the kingdom of God.
Yes, evangelism is important, but participating in evil activities will cripple your ability to reach anyone.
James 1:27 tells us to be "...unspotted from the world."
Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..."
Ephesians 6:12 says that we wrestle with the rulers of the darkness of this world. Those demonic powers are our enemies. Halloween is clearly the manifestation of these demonic powers. If you don't believe me, then please listen to the experts I linked.
I'm not writing these things just to win an argument, but for the spiritual benefit of the precious children of God who use this wonderful website, including yourself.
On the subject of engaging with the world, consider John the Baptist, living in a cave in the wilderness eating locusts and wild honey. He was very effective at making disciples and preaching the gospel of repentance.
Yes, Peter, I agree. Halloween is merely sugar-coated witchcraft. It's made attractive to lure the gullible, who will ultimately pay a heavy spiritual cost. Harry Potter is the same, as are a multitude of popular TV shows and movies. As Children of God, we should keep ourselves away from these evil influences and seek after purity and holiness. Heb 12:14 emphasises how important holiness is.
Yes, but I have a friend who believes the earth is flat and it's very hard to convince them when at ground level, as the curvature is not obvious. I think taking them up in a hot air balloon would work! I used to live in a very tall building and I could see the curvature of the earth from the 50th floor.
On the topic of being overweight, this is the funniest joke I've seen. https://www.gocomics.com/garfield/1984/09/30 I first saw this when I was about 7 years old, when I got a Garfield book as a present.
Jappel, you're right! Isn't it funny that a Fireman can be fired, A Lumberjack can get the axe. A Sardine packer can be canned. A Santa impersonator can be sacked!
Lne, some strong recent scientific evidence for a young earth include Mary Schweitzer's discovery of dinosaur soft tissue with blood vessels. https://creation.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue
I believe it's literal. There is much solid scientific data to indicate the earth and the solar system is less than 10,000 years old. Also archaeology confirms the accuracy of the Old Testament history. Bible genealogies indicate that Adam was created around 4000 BC.