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This is the confusion, the trinity (concept of three different bodies) because verses like 1 John 5:7 and Deeuteronomy 6:4 clearly say God is one

I think most of the difficulty comes from our understanding of the world from the perspective of Newtonian physics.
For example, if you have three billiard balls on a table, they cannot overlap each other, but have hard physical boundaries.
In contrast, God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
And we are not just a body, but a body, soul and spirit.

Some of the best verses to help you understand the Trinity are John chapter 1, especially, 1:1 and 1:14.
The clearest description of the trinity is 1 John 5:7.
We live in a 3 dimensional world, but there are other dimensions which are invisible to us.
Modern physics has proven that to be true.
God is a multidimensional being and is not easy to understand, because He is a spirit. John 4:24.
God exists both inside and outside of our physical world.
Many Bible verses talk about God dwelling in heaven, but God also dwells in us. 1 Cor 3:16.
So if you consider how many believers are living on earth, and God is living inside each one of them, that's pretty mind-boggling.
But if you've ever had an experience of the Holy Spirit inside you, even if it's just one special dream, you'll know that it's absolutely true.
If you can accept that God is capable of dwelling in millions of believers simultaneously, then that might help with accepting the concept of the Trinity.

Which aspect of the Trinity are you finding difficult?

I don't believe in the Trinity- there I finally said it. I know every one wants me to but it just doesn't make sense... SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND

Please join my group so we can all share are story of how we got saved.

Good

I’m well

Hello! Jappel. How are u?

Hello! Jappel. How are u?

Hello! Jappel. How are u?

Hello! Jappel. How are u?

Hello! Jappel. How are u?

Hello! Jappel. How are u?

Hello! Jappel. How are u?

I would definitely agree with both Peter and Carla. One thing you should think about was when the last time you were filled with the Spirit. You have definitely answered that question well.

Treeswallow, I’d say there’s a difference between receiving the Spirit (as Jesus said in John 20:22) and being filled with the Spirit (as described in Acts 2).
All Christians receive the Holy Spirit when they accept Jesus as saviour (2 Cor 1:22). But for me at least, being filled with the Spirit (Acts 2:4) was a separate event. I can still vividly remember the first time, and I have experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit numerous times since.

Hey Treeswallow, I was listening to this chapter last night and I think that the reason he did this is to give them "special" power that was different than the other Christians.

So……

@treeswallow you are smart just like the rest of us! 😊

@onfire247- yes, we do. But I didn’t want to just say shut up and let’s talk about something else. If you understand what I’m talking about.

@treeswallow
I have read the verse you mentioned, and I will get back to you after I think on it. But a good question.

Maybe changing the subject will help... Another question. If the apostles and early believers received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, what is the purpose of John 20:22? Some commentaries say Jesus was promising the Holy Spirit when He said this, others say it was a 'taste' or small 'sprinkling' of the Holy Spirit on His disciples. You all are a lot smarter than I am, what do you think?

For wanting a conversation to end, you guys have a funny way of showing it...

I came across this lovely passage in Titus today that I thought I would share:
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

I rarely contribute to discussions, but in this particular situation, I felt it necessary to share my personal knowledge on the subject, as I have an unusual amount of experience in this area and I felt the advice being offered was spiritually hazardous.
Paul encourages us to speak, exhort and rebuke, and to be a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
I hope that I've encouraged you all to do that.
Grace be with you.

@goldendoodlelover. None of this is your fault. It’s a good question and a topic well discussed. Thanks to those that participated. Until the next topic, God bless!

As usual, I am a day late and a dollar short. I missed this discussion entirely. And not wanting to rile any feathers further or rekindle a difficult debate that has quieted down, I would like to add one thought... kind of an external thought.

Everyone who signs up on this site to memorize scripture comes from a unique place before God. We are all at different places, have different struggles, and certainly have different views of our God, the Word, and how to live. From my vantage point, we look a lot like the people who hung out with Jesus. We all certainly need Jesus.

I have been the recipient of countless messages of encouragement. At different points, I have wrestled with whether or not I should/could/would continue. In the midst of these moments, many of you have reached out and encouraged me. It helped far more than you know.

One of the great things about memorizing the Word is that at the very least it keeps you in the Word. Being in the Word, being in prayer, leaning on the Holy Spirit are the tools which humble us and make us ready to listen, discern, and proclaim.

My prayer is that as we discuss our differences (they can be varied and sometimes concerning), may we recognize that we engage from a place of humility, recognizing that we all have learned more from a place of humility rather than from a place of righteousness.

Please don't leave the site. Pause, if you must. Reflect, always a good idea. Test with scripture, as unto the Lord. And please don't stop being encouragers. We all need it.

Peace (Shalom),

TheMoviegoer

Good morning and hello to everyone on here whether or not they took part in this 'debate'. I'm not quite sure whether the participants in this were trying to seem upset at the other's message. I don't agree with everything both of you said as you argued quite a bit. However, no matter your beliefs I would encourage you to be careful how you reply. Both of you give off the impression of being quite aggravated at the other. Perhaps that is not the case. But this space is for discussing, not arguing. I would ask that you pay attention to your 'tone' as you talk, as it adds greatly to the spirit of your message.
This is not to scold anyone or show my irritation, as I am not irritated at either of you. I have siblings and I hear this kind of thing 24/7. I would simply ask that in a space designed specifically for not arguing but simply discussing that we would try to follow the rules. And I myself will do my best to follow the same.
Godbless.

Hi Jappel,
It's ok, I'm completely calm but would like to give a final response to what Onfire said about my comments.

When I asked:
"Can a Christian commit any kind of sin and still get to heaven?"
I was trying to show that some sins are very serious and may preclude Christians from going to heaven.
For example, I met a young man at church decades ago who told me, quite unashamedly, that he regularly committed a particular sin.
He had also been to Bible College and was surely convinced that grace would cover him, and he would still make it to heaven.
However, Ephesians 5:5 says that he won't inherit the kingdom of God as his sin was listed there.

So you can see that this question is a long way from asserting a requirement for sinless perfection.

Now, on the subject of Halloween, if an ex-satanist can't convince you of the dangers of participating in Halloween, then it seems futile for me to attempt to do so.
I was only trying to help you.

I hope the discussion was helpful for any readers.
I personally found it very helpful to sharpen my own conscience and to be more motivated to practice what I believe.

I agree with Jappel, I did not mean to make everyone so stressed.

This has obviously gone farther than the topic of halloween. I understand that there are differences. But this group isn’t for arguing over beliefs. Debating, maybe. But this had gone a bit farther than debate. If you would, please stop going around and around.
Onfire247, you said you didn’t want another argument like before. But you are continuing one right now. Both of you guys, that have a great impact on this site, aren’t helping this cause because of differences that won’t really matter for eternity! If you would, please calm this down a little.

I was not setting up a straw man. I was responding to the following statement of yours:

"But does God have any limits on his grace?
Can a Christian commit any kind of sin and still get to heaven?
When you read the entire New Testament, that seems very unlikely."

It is hard to read that statement as anything other than you must live a sinless life to be saved. Perhaps you did not mean it that way, but it certainly goes with the rest of your arguments so far.

It is possible to take the "works" words of Jesus too far. I mean, one of Jesus' primary opponents (the Pharisees) did that very same thing. Indeed, some of Jesus' harshest words were for those who focused on works at the exclusion of love.

Of course, we should all work for the kingdom. Of course, we will all stand before God on the day of judgment. Of course, there will be those who are surprised by the outcome. But it won't be those who didn't strive for sinless perfection. It will be those who failed to love God by loving their neighbor, which naturally leads to good works.

This conversation has gone far afield from the original topic, so I will finish my part with this. Dressing up for Halloween will not lead you to hell. It will not override your ability to hear from God or be a functioning member of the kingdom. It will not allow evil spirits to invade you. You are not worshiping Satan if you dress up like Spiderman and get Sweet Tarts for Halloween. But if any of these things cause you to stumble before God, or affects your walk with Him in any way, then simply do not do it. Do not let my freedom be a stumbling block to you. But at the same time, do not judge me for my choices. I will not celebrate Halloween around you if it causes you to stumble, because that's what Romans 14 demands. I also will not judge you if you think Halloween is evil and wish not to participate, because that is what Matthew 7 demands. And we can still continue to have unity even if we have diverse opinions on the subject because that is what John 13:35 demands.

Also, remember what Jesus said in Revelation 2:23:
"all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
So our works are important and we should be striving to please our Lord with good works and avoiding sin.

And although I hadn't mentioned sinless perfection before, now that you bring it up, I think it is a worthy goal and there are many scriptures to support that.
Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It's far better to strive for perfection than to test the limits of God's grace.

Hi Onfire,
No, you are not understanding me correctly.
You repeatedly use the word "sinless", and I never did.
So you've set up a straw man and defeated him convincingly. But that's not what I said.

What I'm saying is that we are judged according to our works.
Faith in Jesus Christ is the starting point for salvation, and is an obvious requirement, so that excludes Muslims.
Both sheep and goats have faith in Jesus Christ and call him Lord, but the goats have forgotten about the importance of good works.
And the goats don't get into heaven.

That takes us back to Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This should be at the core of our doctrine, rather than verses taken out of the context of Paul's discussions on circumcision.

For example, your quote of Gal 2:16 refers to "works of the law". What are those?
verse 14 explains the context:
If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
And look at verses 7, 8, 9, and 12 which all refer to circumcision.

So, if you substitute "works of the law" with "circumcision", it all makes sense.

These are not the good works that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 25.

In Revelation 20 it says:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

These books have a record of all our works, meaning everything we've done.
This is very different from "works of the law" referred to in Paul's letters.

Once again you built a straw man argument that I'm somehow saying that Jesus didn't bring grace.
Of course Jesus brought grace!
As I said in my post:
"My personal understanding of grace is that God has provided a way for us to enter heaven through the Lord Jesus Christ and his death on the cross.
Also, God's forgiveness of our sins is included in the concept of grace."

If we want Jesus Christ to call us a good and faithful servant at the judgment, then that's what we need to be.

Christians can't dabble with as much evil as we like and expect a rubbery concept of grace to make all our bad behaviour go unnoticed by God.

So, if I am understanding you correctly, you interpret the Bible to mean that Jesus death on the cross opens the door into Heaven, and that you can only walk through the door by being sinless? Then what is the point of the cross if you have to live a perfect life to enter heaven. This sounds very much like the Muslim idea of salvation where your good works are measured against your bad works on a giant set of scales. Also, that is basically what Pelagius suggested before he was labeled a heretic 1600 years ago.

Are we to believe that Jesus did not bring grace because he didn't talk about it. Well, I guess we should throw out the Trinity as well, because that word is never used by Jesus. We also need to throw out "Christian," "Christianity," "discipleship," "rapture," and finally, "responsibility." Besides, to say that Jesus did not mean something does not mean he did not have it in mind. There are plenty of things Jesus did not talk about. Where is the discussion of Halloween if it is so important? Why does Jesus not mention the word "abortion," an evil that was definitely present in the Roman empire during his day? This is nothing more than an argument from silence, which is a well-known logical fallacy.

How can you read any of the letters of Paul and come away with the belief that salvation must be received through being perfectly sinless? And how do you reconcile the following verses which seem to indicate that salvation only comes from grace. Here are just a few:

Gal. 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal. 3:2-5
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Phil 3:8-9
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Rom. 3:22-27
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Rom. 3:30
since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Rom. 4:1-5   
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 5:15-17
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Rom. 9:14-16   
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Rom. 9:30-32   
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

2 Tim. 1:8-10   
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Titus 3:4-7
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Cor. 1:26-31 
For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

In regards to Ephesians 2:8-9, which you so easily dismiss, it is true that sometimes Paul uses "works" to mean "works of the law," but not in this verse. After all, this letter was written to Gentile readers, not Jews. Indeed, the only reference to "Law" in the letter is found in 2:15, where Paul is reminding the reader of what God did in the past to open up salvation to the Gentiles. But here, he is talking about just works in general. He is letting his readers know of what a privilege they have by God's grace, that can only be received through faith and not through human activity. This meshes well with the words of Jesus where he says "my yolk is easy and my burden is light." How in the world can living a sinless perfection be a light yolk?

But even if you interpret the "works" that Paul describes as "works of the law," that does not nullify the theme of grace vs. works found all over Paul. For him, grace and faith are inseparable, and salvation through sinlessness is their antithesis. After all, what are the "works of the law" but ways that the Law brought about salvation for the Jews until the true salvation could be revealed through Christ's death on the cross (Rom 3)? This is why we have a new and better covenant filled with better promises.

To believe that sinless perfection is required to make salvation effective is to minimize the work of Christ on the cross. It is also to completely ignore the writings of Paul, or interpret them in such a way that the letters might as well be thrown out of the Canon. Finally, it is to ignore the teachings of the vast majority of Biblical scholars for the last 2000 years, who one must assume where guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of the Word.

We, as Gentiles Christians do not minimize the words of Jesus. When we read him saying that there is a day of Judgment, and that we will give an account for our actions, we take those things seriously. It helps us to understand that we should be living a holy life because that is his will. But we also understand that it is impossible to escape that judgment without God's grace. I mean, really, who can stand up to God when he judges every random thought a person has without Jesus' blood to cover over that sin? And we also understand that the process of sanctification takes a lifetime to achieve, where every year we sin a little bit less as we become closer and closer to God.

But as we take Jesus' words seriously, we must also interpret the words of Jesus through Paul. It was the Council of Jerusalem who decided that Paul was to take the message of Jesus to reach the Gentiles. That was God's will from the beginning, and I see no reason why that directive should not stand today. It does not minimize the words of Jesus to interpret them through Paul. After all, if you read Paul, you find that he and Jesus agree on every topic when Jesus' words are interpreted in light of the cross.

Hi Onfire,
I would like to respond to your questions directed to me, if I may.
Please note that I am trying help you see a different perspective on this for your own benefit.

The teaching that "Matthew is written to a Jewish audience", inevitably sows the seed of thought that none of it applies to us as Gentiles.
I heard this in Bible College and I don't buy it.

If we are disciples of Jesus, then every word in the book of Matthew needs to be taken seriously and applied to us today wherever possible.
Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24:35?
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

You asked me, "Does the works-based message to a works-based Jewish people mean the same thing after Jesus' death on the cross where he paid for the sins of all?"

I don't believe that as soon as Jesus died, all the rules of salvation changed and from that point in time no one was required to do anything good.

I believe that God has always required his children to be good, both before and after the death of Jesus.

Some may suggest that as long as you "believe", you get a free ticket to heaven, and you can do whatever you like, but Matthew 25 shows this isn't the case.

Matthew 25, is an entire chapter outlining what you may call a "works-based message".
The sheep are those who are obedient and did good works.
The goats are those who were disobedient and failed to do good works.
Note that the goats refer to Jesus as "Lord", so they are believing Christians.
Isn't that rather surprising?
Jesus ends the chapter with this:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So Jesus is talking about the eternal destiny of Christians here. They are in two distinct groups - the sheep and the goats, and their destinies are very different.

Both groups must have faith in Jesus and believe Jesus died to pay for their sins, otherwise how could they call him Lord?

I believe Matthew applies to us today, even as Gentiles, and that we need to make sure that we are sheep and not goats.
We need to be obedient and zealous to do good works, which God has prepared for us.

If you take a step back, you will see that the entire modern theological academic teaching on this subject ignores everything Jesus said, and rests solely on Ephesians 2:8, and specifically the word "grace".
But bear in mind that the meaning of "grace" is never defined, and surprisingly it is not to be found in any of the gospels.

Also, consider that the term "works" Eph 2:8 could be referring to "works of the law" or the ceremonial laws such as circumcision.
Paul was assuring the Ephesian church that they didn't need to follow Jewish ceremonial laws and become circumcised, as you see in Eph 2:11.
The whole passage from verse 11 onwards is an explanation of the way Christ broke down the division between Jews and Gentiles.
The boasting may be specifically referring to the Jewish Christian men boasting that they had been circumcised.

Is there any other evidence Eph 2:8 is referring to ceremonial works (eg. circumcision)?
Yes, in Romans 3.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

As you see in verse 30, the big issue at the time was regarding circumcision.
Gentile Christians were being pressured by Jewish believers to be circumcised, and Paul is explaining why that isn't necessary.

I think we need to be careful not to take Eph 2:8 in isolation out of the context of circumcision and then use it to nullify everything Jesus taught regarding the importance of good works.

My personal understanding of grace is that God has provided a way for us to enter heaven through the Lord Jesus Christ and his death on the cross.
Also, God's forgiveness of our sins is included in the concept of grace.

But does God have any limits on his grace?
Can a Christian commit any kind of sin and still get to heaven?
When you read the entire New Testament, that seems very unlikely.
In the final Judgement, the exact details of our works will be reviewed.
Revelation 20:13 says, "and they were judged every man according to their works."

I think that participation in Halloween will not count in anyone's favour.
So I'm encouraging you and everyone here who reads this to give Halloween a wide berth.

I will conclude with this passage:
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

I hope this is helpful for whoever reads it.
It's a perspective on the subject that I arrived at by reading God's Word for myself and not from a theological textbook.

Very good illustration, Carla.

One thing that this Halloween subject reminded me of is a story I heard from a well-respected man at my church. I can't remember whether he knew this man, or a friend did. But either way, let's call this man in the story Bill. For many years, Bill had been in the occult and worshipped Satan. Then he got saved. He came to a prayer meeting and watched as they prayed for a while, then afterwards the group went to get coffee and donuts. Bill was aghast, and told my friend, "You pray for thirty minutes, and then you go mingle and talk and eat sweets. Do you realize that when I was in the occult, we would pray to Satan all night? On Halloween we put curses on the candy!"
This reminded me just how lazy we can be when it involves our faith. Having eternal security is not a proper reason for setting aside your faith because you are bored. Christ is not a religion. He is a way of life. Let's live like it.

I agree, Jappel. It is difficult to have discussions like this because people have different beliefs and come from different backgrounds (and even countries). It is also difficult not to get defensive when you think eternal souls are at risk. I saw myself getting a little testy because of the baggage of my childhood, and for that, I apologize to everyone who has read this. And to Saintman, whom I do not know in person but respect greatly because of his contributions on here (and his heart). I find that I am guilty of reading perhaps too deeply into his comments, and for that, I apologize again.

Carla, it is always a balancing act. How can you get into the mud with the lost without getting lost yourself? I wish I could say there is but one answer. Ultimately, you have to do what God tells you to do, for He provides the strength. Both Treeswallow and Saintman are correct that you must put on the armor of God and be constantly walking in the Spirit to have any hope. If any activity, Halloween or otherwise, prevents that, then don't do it. God deals with each of us differently, and we all respond to him differently because we are all made differently.

One of the confessions I pray during my devotionals is that the light within me would push back the darkness around me. More specifically, "I thank you, Jesus, that all demonic oppression is broken in the lives of those who come into your presence. Therefore, since you are within me, everywhere I go, your light in me pierces through the deception of the enemy and pushes back the darkness around me. I declare all demonic oppression broken in the lives of those who come into contact with me in Jesus' name" (2 Cor 4:4; Isa 58:6; Isa 61:1-4; Luke 4:17-21; Acts 10:38).

I'm love reading all this stuff! I also agree with you, Onfire. We cannot stay seated in our pews and not reach out to the lost. We cannot reach out to the lost without entering into their world and experiencing the wickedness of this world. At the same time, we cannot stomp around in the mud or reach into the fire of this world without the risk of falling in. We need to be Christ's light, but we must be very careful in the darkest of places. It is not that His strength isn't enough to keep us from falling, but that the desires of our flesh have a way of deceiving us into sin. Just as a very experienced and hardened surgeon is needed to perform a complicated surgery, so is a strong and experienced Christian needed to pull a person out of mire of sin. This job is for someone who has put on Christ's strength and armor, not for a babe in the Word. I just wanted to add that. Kind of what Saintman said, but my own version.

Hi, I decided to join this group because you guys are having some really good conversations on here that are really making me think. Onfire, thank you for your message about getting into the mud to save people drowning in it. I believe strongly that if we do not get soiled for our beliefs, we are not being a witness as we should. For if we are witnessing and letting Christ's light shine through us, the world will hate us and revile us just as they do Christ. That is not to say we should try to stir up trouble. After all, God hates he that soweth discord among brethren. But by spreading peace we have to knock over the pedestals of evil, to lay out the foundation of righteousness. To show God's love we have to expel the hate around us.

I agree that we don’t need to have another argument. One problem is that we accuse. Even I do that. In this group, we ask questions and give opinions. Not to try to reprove the other because he/she has different beliefs and convictions! Can we try to do that?